[Intelforum] War Crimes

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From: DLVinvest at cs.com
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:44:35 EDT

MODERATOR'S Note (Mike Dravis): Additional contributions to the War 
Crimes thread
should substantially address intelligence topics.

**********

In a message dated 8/15/05 11:41:35 AM Mountain Daylight Time, 
intelforum at lists101.his.com writes:

>I would be interested in seeing something specific that rates 
>civilian lives as worth
>less than civilians.  [sic: the argument advanced by John Young was 
>that military planners depreciate civilian lives as collateral 
>damage vs military casualties --dlv] Care to point us toward 
>specific doctrinal information supporting this?
>
>Bill Gross
>


see McNamara's confessions re: fire-bombing of Dresden and Tokyo in 
Erroll Morris's documentary film, Fog of War: McN worked with Curtis 
Lemay on the strategic bombing surveys in WWII; he admits that he and 
other war-gamers/planners could have been tried and convicted for 
intentionally targeting civilians, long before implementing this 
carpet-bombing calculus in Vietnam


Douglas L. Vaughan, Jr.


# # #

From: DLVinvest at cs.com
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 13:50:21 EDT

In a message dated 8/15/05 11:45:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time, 
intelforum at lists101.his.com writes:

>hardline
>militarists and the Japanese High Command were determined to continue
>fighting even after Hiroshima.  Their resistance was not due to
>mindless suicidal fanaticism:  they never figured that the world
>would let them slide for their horrendous crimes in Manchukuo, China,
>Korea and elsewhere---mass murder, wholesale slavery, etc., all very
>profitable, too.  The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere was a
>lucrative criminal enterprise that the Japanese military and industry
>were loathe to give up...
>
>James F. Bisher
>


quite true, but it's a twisted logic that leads to calculating H&N as 
a "lesser evil" in a choice of evils defense of war crimes -- 
punishing civilians for the crimes of their government, in which they 
were ostensibly complicit by deriving some economic benefit, would 
first apply to self-styled democracies, no?

see, generally,  Gar Alperovitz's work on The Decision to Use the 
Bomb and Robert Lifton's studies of victims and executioners

Douglas L. Vaughan, Jr.

# # #

From: "Phil Jacobsen" <k6fw at cox.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 19:20:45 -0700

As in all politically tinged issues, any unlikely argument can be made
especially from extreme right wingers (like Roosevelt knew about Pearl
Harbor in advance) and from the ultra liberal anti-war and Japanese
apologist crowd. There are too many examples to name. Also, I have not read
the subject argument, but where is the intelligence aspect of it? Isn't it
more of a foreign policy or military issue?

Personally, I would give great weight to proven objective writers for a
better insight into the issue. May I suggest Richard B. Frank's recent
article in the Weekly Standard explaining why Truman dropped the bomb. See

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/005/894mnyyl.a
sp

Also, some reference to Ed Drea's "Downfall" would be very illuminating in
my opinion. There he deftly uses the intelligence information that was
available to make his point.

I would suggest that some time be given to check the sources and analysis of
this new theory before one makes up his or her mind. How many references
were made to Soviet archives and how can they be checked for example? With
all the study and efforts expended to cover the A-bombing of Japan, why did
it take so long for this new attack on the dropping of the bomb to come out?
Did the fact that the previous attempts to argue that it was not necessary
to have dropped the A-bombs to force Japan to surrender have been pretty
well been discredited?

Yes, I am biased. If the bombs had not been dropped, I could well have been
sent back to fighting the Japanese again and might not be here to write this
comment.

Philip H. Jacobsen


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